tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8433320860790514779.post455325938628655321..comments2023-11-02T07:48:48.715-04:00Comments on Arminian Perspectives: Challies: Defending Arminians Unfair to Their Accuserskangaroodorthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04172265279507643348noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8433320860790514779.post-38501772795235817252007-09-24T22:10:00.000-04:002007-09-24T22:10:00.000-04:00Speaking of Roger Olsen...Has anyone here read his...Speaking of Roger Olsen...Has anyone here read his recent editorial regarding the bridge collapse in Minnesota? He has some VERY sharp criticism for Piper and other Calvinists over the matter. Much less conciliatory than usual. I tend to agree with his view, but am surprised with his sharper than usual tone.<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.baylor.edu/Lariat/news.php?action=story&story=46486" REL="nofollow"> <BR/>Calvinist view of bridge collapse distorts God's character</A>Kevin Jacksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13472900037134045450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8433320860790514779.post-24114195313474804702007-09-22T08:04:00.000-04:002007-09-22T08:04:00.000-04:00One of the issues I wrestled with is the Calvinist...One of the issues I wrestled with is the Calvinists contention that without limited atonment some of Christ's blood would have been wasted. Even though I disagreed with that assessment, I have thought about an answer for many years. Recently I proposed this:<BR/><BR/>http://judahslion.blogspot.com/2007/09/atonement-rom.htmlRick Fruehhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05879848568892457571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8433320860790514779.post-55130204125736059012007-09-22T07:23:00.000-04:002007-09-22T07:23:00.000-04:00I have added you to my blog roll.All the best,Sean...I have added you to my blog roll.<BR/><BR/>All the best,<BR/><BR/>SeanSean Babuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18204668581519850078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8433320860790514779.post-451087904190022592007-09-22T01:06:00.000-04:002007-09-22T01:06:00.000-04:00I really enjoy this blog and have learned a lot fr...I really enjoy this blog and have learned a lot from it. I have just ordered Olsen's book, which was actually recommended on a great site run by a Calvinist! The site is Partchment and Pen, which involves a lot of discussions on Calvinist topics (although that is not its exclusive topic), and right now there is a lively discussion on Olsen. I would highly recommend it, and you could really add to the discussion there:<BR/><BR/>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8433320860790514779.post-44578928849546760352007-09-21T23:21:00.000-04:002007-09-21T23:21:00.000-04:00WELCOME BACK! You were missed.This was an excellen...WELCOME BACK! You were missed.<BR/><BR/>This was an excellent post. Really. I agree with your comments and think that you are dead on.<BR/>Way to go.<BR/><BR/>BillyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8433320860790514779.post-60692731200713477112007-09-21T20:20:00.000-04:002007-09-21T20:20:00.000-04:00http://judahslion.blogspot.com/2007/09/limited-ato...http://judahslion.blogspot.com/2007/09/limited-atonement-great-heresy-t-he.htmlRick Fruehhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05879848568892457571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8433320860790514779.post-4119702282489127812007-09-21T15:33:00.000-04:002007-09-21T15:33:00.000-04:00Also in regards to exegesis in regards to Paul's q...Also in regards to exegesis in regards to Paul's quotes of the Old Testament in the book of Romans.....including Romans chapter 9. Most of those quotes came from the LXX text. (the septuigent text)<BR/><BR/>So it would be wise to look at the LXX when looking at Paul's Old Testament quotes.Jnormhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06749159886390240183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8433320860790514779.post-44117588189120610022007-09-21T15:29:00.000-04:002007-09-21T15:29:00.000-04:00Alot of people misunderstand. I find this is true ...Alot of people misunderstand. I find this is true not only for Calvinists but for Arminians as well. John Cassian only tought that "some" people's will was able to preceed the Grace of God.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Other than that what he had to say about the issue was "orthodox" christian teaching.<BR/><BR/><BR/>This is what most people don't know and this is what people need to know if they are going to talk about "semi-pelagianism"<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>INLOVE JnormJnormhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06749159886390240183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8433320860790514779.post-55671795885698965342007-09-21T12:58:00.000-04:002007-09-21T12:58:00.000-04:00Ben, LOL @ Debate Tips for Calvinists -- Exactly!Ben, <BR/><BR/>LOL @ <A HREF="http://arminianperspectives.blogspot.com/2007/08/debate-tips-for-calvinists.html" REL="nofollow">Debate Tips for Calvinists</A> -- Exactly!Nick Norellihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12476840322475063434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8433320860790514779.post-46965964202764551062007-09-21T08:51:00.000-04:002007-09-21T08:51:00.000-04:00JC,Your link to Tim's review doesn't seem to be wo...JC,<BR/><BR/>Your link to Tim's review doesn't seem to be working.kangaroodorthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04172265279507643348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8433320860790514779.post-32969522048134457652007-09-21T08:45:00.000-04:002007-09-21T08:45:00.000-04:00Challies' appeal to authority seems par for the co...<I>Challies' appeal to authority seems par for the course with Calvinists -- how many times have you been referred to Frame, or Piper, or Sproul, or White, or Boettner, etc.? I stopped counting after the umpteenth time...</I><BR/><BR/>Nick,<BR/><BR/>Have you read my post "Debate Tips For Calvinists"? I address this very same tactic.kangaroodorthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04172265279507643348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8433320860790514779.post-60407623061422307382007-09-21T00:14:00.000-04:002007-09-21T00:14:00.000-04:00Thanks, JC, for the link. Good post here.You may b...Thanks, JC, for the link. Good post here.<BR/><BR/>You may be interested in my exegetical work on the primary Calvinist proof passages: <A HREF="http://schooleyfiles.blogspot.com/2006/08/new-perspective-and-ephesians.html" REL="nofollow">Ephesians 1 and 2</A>, <A HREF="http://schooleyfiles.blogspot.com/2006/08/new-perspective-and-romans-9.html" REL="nofollow">Romans 9</A>, and <A HREF="http://schooleyfiles.blogspot.com/2007/02/being-drawn-divine-election-in-john-6.html" REL="nofollow">John 6</A>.<BR/><BR/>It's all collected at http://schooleyfiles.blogspot.com/search/label/Divine%20Election as well. To me, the historical and philosophical arguments are interesting, but ultimately it's about what Scripture says. We don't have to concede exegesis to Calvinists. Far from it. It is impossible, for example, to read Paul's OT quotes in Romans 9 in their OT contexts (in other words, understand them as Paul understood them), and come to the conclusions that Calvinists do with this passage.Keith Schooleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04078256877683382439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8433320860790514779.post-60548940098335874002007-09-20T23:22:00.000-04:002007-09-20T23:22:00.000-04:00Nick's observation is exactly right. The articles ...Nick's observation is exactly right. The articles of the Remonstrance asserted that while man did indeed have free will to reject God's grace, it was only by God's grace that man could believe at all, which fits very well with the biblical record:<BR/><BR/>"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44<BR/><BR/>"...exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace" Acts 18:27b<BR/><BR/>The defining characteristic of Semipelagianism was that willingness on fallen man's part to believe preceded God's grace and call, thus man effectively calls himself unto salvation rather than God doing so. The Remonstrants recognized this error and thoroughly denounced it in their articles. Note that the articles speak only of God's grace, not regeneration as preceding faith.J.C. Thibodauxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12884600822119690931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8433320860790514779.post-53057086585373115032007-09-20T20:35:00.000-04:002007-09-20T20:35:00.000-04:00Thanks to both of you for your replies. I do not c...Thanks to both of you for your replies. I do not consider myself a Calvinist or Arminian at this time. I had never given it much thought and did not know of the difference until recently. It is very confusing though for a lay person to understand. It seems that everyone throws out their favorite proof texts and nothing is ever really accomplished. <BR/><BR/>I have to admit though that it is very fascinating to learn about all of this. it makes one understand their faith a little better. It is good to have people like you guys that speak equally as passionately as the other side does.<BR/><BR/>magnus<BR/><BR/>PS. I will try to read some of Episcopius when I get some free time.Magnushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05645497952033803558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8433320860790514779.post-53332826846567763782007-09-20T20:06:00.000-04:002007-09-20T20:06:00.000-04:00Good post. I think there is a vicious cycle at wo...Good post. I think there is a vicious cycle at work here. Calvinists learn about Arminianism from other Calvinists who have learned from other Calvinists, <I>ad nauseum</I>... And those who claim to have converted Calvinism from Arminianism were more times than not, never actually Arminians. They only claim the title for their former selves because they are under the impression that there are only two options and if you aren't a Calvinist then you are by default an Arminian.<BR/><BR/>Challies' appeal to authority seems par for the course with Calvinists -- how many times have you been referred to Frame, or Piper, or Sproul, or White, or Boettner, etc.? I stopped counting after the umpteenth time... <BR/><BR/>In response to the question asked about the articles of the Remonstrance, I think it would be proper to interpret them as exalting God's grace over human freedom. It is the prevenient grace of God that enables a man to respond to the Gospel. The reference to John 15 in Art. III is speaking post-conversion -- it is not saying that a man must be regenerated in order to believe. <BR/><BR/>That's my 2ยข worth.Nick Norellihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12476840322475063434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8433320860790514779.post-42397577552769455022007-09-20T19:50:00.000-04:002007-09-20T19:50:00.000-04:00Magnus,First, I need to clarify that I did not wri...Magnus,<BR/><BR/>First, I need to clarify that I did not write this post. JC has just joined Arminian Perspectives and is the writer of this post.<BR/><BR/>I personally have not read enough of the Remonstrants to know what they meant by the language in Article 4. I do know, however, that Arminius believed that faith must precede regeneration and I am quite certain that Simon Episcopius [who probably drafted the Articles] believed the same. This is a matter that I will need to look into more when I get the chance. I admit that the language is confusing.<BR/><BR/>I think there are two possibilities without having looked very deeply into the issue. The fisrt possibility comes close to what you expressed. The Remonstrants wanted to make it very clear that the work of the Holy Spirit which some men resist is a regenerating work. When men "resist the Holy Spirit" they are not resisting some sort of common grace with no intentions of saving, but they are, in fact, resisting the genuine efforts of the Holy Spirit to bring them to faith and repentance.<BR/><BR/>The second possibility is that the Remonstrants had not thought carefully about the implications or felt the ordo salutis was not as important as Calvinists did. For them the main issues were the scope and nature of the atonement, and the question of whether salvation and election were conditional or unconditional.<BR/><BR/>I would recommend looking at the writings of Simon Episcopius on line to see what he had to say about it. He is quoted extensively in "Arminian Theology: Myths and Realities" by Roger Olson. I do not have his book with me as I am at the Library [and not one which carries the book], but he may address the very issue you are concerned about.<BR/><BR/>In the end, I look to Scripture for the answers primarily, and it is no secret that I find serious exegetical and theological problems with the Calvinist teaching that regeneration precedes faith. This has been the postion of all Arminian theologians that I have read, including Arminius, though he often used similar language to that used in the fourth Article.<BR/><BR/>God Bless,<BR/>Benkangaroodorthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04172265279507643348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8433320860790514779.post-71999181014697588862007-09-20T16:27:00.000-04:002007-09-20T16:27:00.000-04:00Ben,I was hoping that you could help me understand...Ben,<BR/><BR/>I was hoping that you could help me understand Points 3 & 4 better. I understand that Arminians are not Pelagians but I fail to see the difference with the Calvinist doctrine on this. It seems to me that they are both saying that God has to rebirth one to where they can have the right understanding to make THE choice?<BR/><BR/>I see the difference then in one side says you then can reject it and the other side saying no you can not reject it.<BR/><BR/>I have asked this question before on another blog, but I still need to see it better I suppose.<BR/><BR/>magnusMagnushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05645497952033803558noreply@blogger.com